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Demo Charges are fun.

26 May 2015, 18:40 PM
#41
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

Demos are flat out one of the worst and retarded mechanics in the game for the simple reason that there is so little counterplay to them, and that they can decide the game in one fell swoop for 90 munis, and I say that as a fanatical demo user.


We do have counter play for Demos, minesweepers. This might sounds odd, Whermacht/OKW has to adjust their strategy with infantry pushes supported via mine sweepers. CAS has no counter play what so ever, but that is another topic.
26 May 2015, 18:43 PM
#42
avatar of REforever

Posts: 314

El o el is all I have to say. For starters, the OKW's minesweeper has a much smaller radius than its Wehrmacht counterpart, so the time you have to react to a planted demo charge is increasingly smaller than a Wehrmacht Pioneer. Demos are fine when you're playing Wehrmacht simply because of the fact you don't need to be standing on top of the demo to see it; with OKW you need to stand right next to it before it's revealed which isn't balanced in the slightest.

If you want to know how balanced demos are, just ask any Allied player if they would want Pioneers/engineer units from every faction have demos. My guess is that most of them would cry and object because even they know that playing against demos as OKW isn't balanced.
26 May 2015, 20:12 PM
#43
avatar of Bulgakov

Posts: 987

I'll repeat: If you blob, you deserve the wipe.


I'll repeat:

The issue isn't that it wipes blobs. I can pretty much agree with the "deserve a wipe" idea you have. The big problem is that it wipes single units too effectively, it shuts down harrassment of sector points and limits the axis players options too severely without any tech cost. The punishment is causes is too damn high!

If it only worked on 4+ units and did little damage to single units, I wouldn't care at all. But it wipes single units too easily and spoils gameplay.


If you don't want to listen to me, that's ok but take a look at Aerohank's playercard with his high allied stats. He's top 50 as soviets for god's sake. He is saying demo is bad not because he is an axis fanboy but because he wants balanced gameplay.
26 May 2015, 20:32 PM
#44
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225



We do have counter play for Demos, minesweepers. This might sounds odd, Whermacht/OKW has to adjust their strategy with infantry pushes supported via mine sweepers. CAS has no counter play what so ever, but that is another topic.

No offence man, but thats just theory. In 1v1, there is no way in hell you can do all harassment with sweeper pios, even if you are very careful, you will almost invariably lose squads which can, and does, very well decide the game. Any CAS ability, even the anti-inf strafe, can be dodged with varying degrees of difficulty, but I don't see how CAS has anything to do with this anyways.
26 May 2015, 21:48 PM
#45
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Aerohanks point is that, just like the Ol ISU, it doesn't only punish people who blob, rather than lone squads.

Bad mechanic, bad design.

I'll rather have it reduce munition cost and allow some counterplay (ala S-Mine field) or having it reworked and give the Soviets some late game scaling munition dumps.
26 May 2015, 22:26 PM
#46
avatar of Thunderhun

Posts: 1613

I'll repeat: If you blob, you deserve the wipe.


I'll repeat: If you do not blob, you still get the wipe.

+1 elchino7
26 May 2015, 23:31 PM
#47
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1072



We do have counter play for Demos, minesweepers. This might sounds odd, Whermacht/OKW has to adjust their strategy with infantry pushes supported via mine sweepers. CAS has no counter play what so ever, but that is another topic.


Demos require 1 CE squad out of combat for about 15 seconds.
The counter to demos require a pioneer/sturmpio with a mine sweeper with EVERY squad (and tank) in combat for the rest of the game because they could be anywhere on the map.

Yes demos have a counter. Do they have a feasible counter? No.

This may be hard for some of you to understand, but demos actually (imho) encourage blobbing because you can protect your whole army from demos with 1 minesweeper. If you didnt blob you would need to buy a sweeper for every unit that moves on its own.
27 May 2015, 03:00 AM
#48
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

again, the best way to counter demos is to blob with a sweeper near the front because that way you've got all your units covered and only need one sweeper squad.
27 May 2015, 04:52 AM
#49
avatar of turbotortoise

Posts: 1283 | Subs: 4

I'll rather have it reduce munition cost and allow some counterplay (ala S-Mine field) or having it reworked and give the Soviets some late game scaling munition dumps.


it's too bad they're consigned to be hidden in dumpster commanders.
28 May 2015, 12:42 PM
#50
avatar of Wazzu15

Posts: 10

Obviously the majority is not in favor of demos, so what's the solution?

Nerfing them? Make them harder to access? More expensive?

All this talk, but no one has really yet to come to an agreeable solution.
28 May 2015, 14:13 PM
#51
avatar of TheSleep3r

Posts: 670

or having it reworked and give the Soviets some late game scaling munition dumps.


This is what happens when you are a Relic balance designer with a simple task of creating good faction: you fail to do so. Or more accurately, you design a faction, and then have to redesign it several times to make it even playable (see: upcoming OKW)

-molos not being a real grenade and behind a paywall: check
-penals, the supposed 'stock elite infantry' have nearly the same role and efficiency as cons, also flamethrowers as upgrade: check
-ppsh, goddamn ppsh behind a damn doctrine? check
-guards got free ptrs: check
-shocks got free posh: check

But we have next patch so things are gonna get bolshye
28 May 2015, 14:18 PM
#52
avatar of Burts

Posts: 1702

I think we should first fix the OKW sweeper having a 10 times smaller circle of detection than all the other sweepers, and see how it goes from there.
28 May 2015, 14:22 PM
#53
avatar of AchtAchter

Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3



This may be hard for some of you to understand, but demos actually (imho) encourage blobbing because you can protect your whole army from demos with 1 minesweeper. If you didnt blob you would need to buy a sweeper for every unit that moves on its own.


Yep, that's sadly the truth. However relic won't remove units/abilites from the game, so we better just deal with it.
28 May 2015, 14:31 PM
#54
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1



Yep, that's sadly the truth. However relic won't remove units/abilites from the game, so we better just deal with it.


They don't have to remove it completely. They could just turn it into the paratroopers version: A cheaper demo that works on a timer instead of remote activation. This way they can still be used to blow up bridges, key buildings or defensive structures, but can no longer be used for easy no-skill wipes.
28 May 2015, 14:51 PM
#55
avatar of AchtAchter

Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3



They don't have to remove it completely. They could just turn it into the paratroopers version: A cheaper demo that works on a timer instead of remote activation. This way they can still be used to blow up bridges, key buildings or defensive structures, but can no longer be used for easy no-skill wipes.


That sounds like a good change, but fanboys would get mad.
28 May 2015, 14:57 PM
#56
avatar of Iron Emperor

Posts: 1653

Just change the goddamn demo. Losing too much against it. Can't sweep the whole map all the time
28 May 2015, 15:05 PM
#57
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



They don't have to remove it completely. They could just turn it into the paratroopers version: A cheaper demo that works on a timer instead of remote activation. This way they can still be used to blow up bridges, key buildings or defensive structures, but can no longer be used for easy no-skill wipes.

You'd just see three times as much mines then.

Soviets have literally nothing to spend muni on and doctrinal options are either, cheap, broken UP to the point of no one using them(IL-2 loiter anyone?) or super expensive and non valid at all in vast majority of situations(bombing run, button, prop arty, booby trap).

All factions have potent muni upgrades on both, infantry and armor.

Soviets have what? Flamer and Quad. ZiS barrage? Not really.

Demos(and mines) are being spammed all over the place, because there is no other way to not have 500+ muni flloat as soviets.
28 May 2015, 15:18 PM
#58
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 May 2015, 15:05 PMKatitof

You'd just see three times as much mines then.

Soviets have literally nothing to spend muni on and doctrinal options are either, cheap, broken UP to the point of no one using them(IL-2 loiter anyone?) or super expensive and non valid at all in vast majority of situations(bombing run, button, prop arty, booby trap).

All factions have potent muni upgrades on both, infantry and armor.

Soviets have what? Flamer and Quad. ZiS barrage? Not really.

Demos(and mines) are being spammed all over the place, because there is no other way to not have 500+ muni flloat as soviets.


Seeing 3 times as many mines is still preferable to demos.
28 May 2015, 15:22 PM
#59
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

I'd still rather have some upgrades that aren't related to doctrines.
Soviets are way too much reliant on indirect combat and gimmicks because someone thought it will be great idea to make base infantry that doesn't scale past 8th minute of the game and is impotent in combat against literally any other squad at that time.
28 May 2015, 15:23 PM
#60
avatar of Nosliw

Posts: 515

To the idiot who said stop blobbing if you don't want to get wiped:

Sounds like allied fanboys here. The amount of times I've seen a USF player move his 4 rifle + LT blob into the field and just throw smoke grenades and A-move is retarded. I sit there thinking "shit son I wish I had a demo or goliath"

H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E-S
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