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OST Panzerwerfer: Truly Underpowered

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27 Mar 2015, 06:17 AM
#161
avatar of Aladdin

Posts: 959


Valid point, I don't think the werfer or katyusha should get 320 health. They are just fine with 160. If anything 200 max. The werfer isn't that great, similar to the FHT the teching requirements make this thing as rare as a unicorn.


Also stuka has a lower range than katusha which makes sense why it has higher HP
27 Mar 2015, 06:46 AM
#162
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

panzer werfer needs to be in t3 where you have a chance to waste fuel on something other than anti tank. In t4 it has zero place considering the cost and time to retain and the low amount of damage it can practically inflict.


I would almost fully agree with the crapiness of pzwerfer if they at least put it in T3.
27 Mar 2015, 10:24 AM
#163
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2015, 06:17 AMAladdin


Also stuka has a lower range than katusha which makes sense why it has higher HP

Pwerfer also got lower range then katy, yet it have 160hp.

Stuka is simply too durable, unless a tank is sitting on it, you can save it most of the time.
It also have vastly superior barrage to both of them for merely 15 more fuel.

And to the guy trying to say "its more expensive", you can reliably get it in 9th minute, have fun getting katy or pwerfer before 11-14min mark.
27 Mar 2015, 10:38 AM
#164
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2015, 10:24 AMKatitof


And to the guy trying to say "its more expensive", you can reliably get it in 9th minute, have fun getting katy or pwerfer before 11-14min mark.


Have fun building wurframen as your first vehicle unit MVGame. I hope you do that if we meet online and are opponents.
27 Mar 2015, 11:16 AM
#165
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1217

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2015, 10:24 AMKatitof
Stuka is simply too durable, unless a tank is sitting on it, you can save it most of the time. It also have vastly superior barrage to both of them for merely 15 more fuel.
That´s wrong. The Stuka zu Fuß effectively costs even more fuel with the decreased income of OKW.

With about 2/3rd the fuel-income, the actual fuel cost is 85 for Kat vs 133 for Stuka. That´s an effective difference of 48 fuel.
27 Mar 2015, 11:22 AM
#166
avatar of AchtAchter

Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2015, 10:38 AMJohnnyB


Have fun building wurframen as your first vehicle unit MVGame. I hope you do that if we meet online and are opponents.


I do that sometimes in 2vs2 and it's not too bad. In 1on1 however very risky and only allowed when you mined map up like Germans did back then in Hürtgen forest.
27 Mar 2015, 11:23 AM
#167
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2015, 10:38 AMJohnnyB


Have fun building wurframen as your first vehicle unit MVGame. I hope you do that if we meet online and are opponents.


He is a 2vs2 player who have no concept of choice. His buddy is going to make the panther for the AT they need. Thats why i dont take most 2vs2 player seriously when they talk balance.

Thats why double OKW team in 2vs2 is the second strongest in the game. The okw is limited on how many tanks they can get but most can have a dramatic impact. Ostheer + okw is even more brutal. the okw have units that cover the weak AT of the ostheer between tier 1 and 4. the ost in return provides much better base infantry and while teching to panthers is expensive as soon as they reached it they can spam panthers with the full force of a normal economy.
27 Mar 2015, 12:44 PM
#168
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2015, 10:24 AMKatitof

Pwerfer also got lower range then katy, yet it have 160hp.

Stuka is simply too durable, unless a tank is sitting on it, you can save it most of the time.
It also have vastly superior barrage to both of them for merely 15 more fuel.

And to the guy trying to say "its more expensive", you can reliably get it in 9th minute, have fun getting katy or pwerfer before 11-14min mark.


It's not to durable, it's a HT, it's as durable as the other HT's. the Werfer and Katyusha should be brought up to the Stuka's health, and acceleration.

The Stuka has double the acceleration of both the Werfer and Kat.
27 Mar 2015, 12:54 PM
#169
avatar of ☭ Калашникова ☭

Posts: 322

I really don't see what's wrong with putting pwerfer back up to its original amount of rockets fired.
When fired from a arty officer the werfer is quite fine.
I don't think bringing them all to stuka durability is the right way to fix it.
27 Mar 2015, 13:09 PM
#170
avatar of Specialka

Posts: 144

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2015, 11:16 AMButcher
That´s wrong. The Stuka zu Fuß effectively costs even more fuel with the decreased income of OKW.

With about 2/3rd the fuel-income, the actual fuel cost is 85 for Kat vs 133 for Stuka. That´s an effective difference of 48 fuel.


lawl.

Plainly wrong.

First, income reduction is there to delay teching, not to show the power of a unit.

Second, even if we took the income reduction in the price, it would be 150 fuel for the Stuka (100 x 1.5).
27 Mar 2015, 13:38 PM
#171
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1217


First, income reduction is there to delay teching, not to show the power of a unit.
Then how do you balance a unit/faction if said unit is harder to get? There are effectively less units of that type on the field. It must be somewhat stronger.

Or if the developers wanted there to be less vehicles with the same power as your opponents vehicles, OKW would have to have an (intended) advantage in infantry to balance the faction.

Not defending the current performance of the units, but I think the fuel argument isn´t good.


Second, even if we took the income reduction in the price, it would be 150 fuel for the Stuka (100 x 1.5).
Ha, I didn´t have maths since six years. I never liked it. :)

But that makes the fuel difference even higher.

Add to that no caches and you can figure out that OKW is currently designed around having less but more effective units on the field. Thus a higher survivability on the Stuka can be explained.

27 Mar 2015, 13:49 PM
#172
avatar of Specialka

Posts: 144

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2015, 13:38 PMButcher
Then how do you balance a unit/faction if said unit is harder to get? There are effectively less units of that type on the field. It must be somewhat stronger.

Or if the developers wanted there to be less vehicles with the same power as your opponents vehicles, OKW would have to have an (intended) advantage in infantry to balance the faction.

Not defending the current performance of the units, but I think the fuel argument isn´t good.

Ha, I didn´t have maths since six years. I never liked it. :)

But that makes the fuel difference even higher.

Add to that no caches and you can figure out that OKW is currently designed around having less but more effective units on the field. Thus a higher survivability on the Stuka can be explained.



Yep, no cache, but still fastest teching in coh 2. High survability, high damage, 5 vet and so on... OKW has everything. No big downside for all that.
27 Mar 2015, 13:53 PM
#173
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1



I do that sometimes in 2vs2 and it's not too bad.


I hear you but it only works if your 2v2 oponents are going heavily on team crew / AT + infantry spam while waiting for ever for havy call ins. Otherwise one-two T34s at the right moment can ruin your day.
Double wurframen as first vehicle build are ok-ish from 3v3 and above because your mates can help you to properly protect them. In such cases every player has its role well defined, you being "the guy with the Walking Stukas". But I wouldn't advise such approach unless you have a map with a serious number of buildings or your oponents are going to camp with mortars, hmgs and ATs (wich is not so uncommon for soviet players).
27 Mar 2015, 16:43 PM
#174
avatar of Aladdin

Posts: 959

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2015, 10:24 AMKatitof

Pwerfer also got lower range then katy, yet it have 160hp.



That's why it's UP and it should have more hp

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2015, 10:24 AMKatitof


Stuka is simply too durable, unless a tank is sitting on it, you can save it most of the time.
It also have vastly superior barrage to both of them for merely 15 more fuel.

And to the guy trying to say "its more expensive", you can reliably get it in 9th minute, have fun getting katy or pwerfer before 11-14min mark.



It's not only 15 more it's almost double with the lower fuel income.

You can't compare and say it comes at that mins since OKW has a totally different design. you choose your teching according to the game.

You skip ur healing/possible forward HQ for getting a fast stuka or if you need to get healing after, then you will have access to your panzer HQ and its units much later (if you ever can build it cause in many cases you are forced to get a JP or wait for a callin JP or Panther command etc). Sov and OKW have different faction design, you can't simply compare them like that.
27 Mar 2015, 16:47 PM
#175
avatar of Aladdin

Posts: 959

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2015, 10:38 AMJohnnyB


Have fun building wurframen as your first vehicle unit MVGame. I hope you do that if we meet online and are opponents.


That's true. It very rarely ever happens anyone builds a panzerwefer as the first vehicle, but you very very often see Katusha being built as the first vehicle.
27 Mar 2015, 17:02 PM
#176
avatar of Aladdin

Posts: 959



It's not to durable, it's a HT, it's as durable as the other HT's. the Werfer and Katyusha should be brought up to the Stuka's health, and acceleration.

The Stuka has double the acceleration of both the Werfer and Kat.


I would have agreed with you if Stuka had the same range as Katusha, but you are wrong on this. Stuka's range is not comparable with Katusha, stuka needs to be taken much closer to frontlines to fire, therefore it needs more HP, not to mention it's higher price in comparison with the other
28 Mar 2015, 00:40 AM
#177
avatar of pigsoup
Patrion 14

Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2015, 16:43 PMAladdin



That's why it's UP and it should have more hp


well, it is not susceptible to small arms fire as much as katyusha so it must be fine following your logic. and priest should also have 160hp and killable solely by a fallschrimjaeger alone


It's not only 15 more it's almost double with the lower fuel income.

...


:facepalm: : pistolinmymouth :
28 Mar 2015, 05:09 AM
#178
avatar of Aladdin

Posts: 959

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Mar 2015, 00:40 AMpigsoup


well, it is not susceptible to small arms fire as much as katyusha so it must be fine following your logic. and priest should also have 160hp and killable solely by a fallschrimjaeger alone



:facepalm: : pistolinmymouth :


A moment of silence
28 Mar 2015, 11:25 AM
#179
avatar of akula

Posts: 589


To me that sounds like it would just wipe more. Is the damage currently 80 or 160? If it was 80 I could get behind bigger AOE, but as of now the scatter is just overnerfed trash in my opinion, onloy effective if you get the panzerwerfer within 30-40 range of the area you want to hit. The cooldown also seriously needs to be reduced by 10-15 seconds.


Damage is currently 80.
28 Mar 2015, 13:56 PM
#180
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130

I think it needs to fire 4-5 extra missiles every barrage to be really a threat to defensive strongpoints
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