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Ostheer: What is to be done?

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Neo
28 Feb 2015, 00:58 AM
#301
avatar of Neo

Posts: 471



It's 1.0 faster, that's it. And the accuracy stats are literally the same.


You talking about ToW stats again?
28 Feb 2015, 01:01 AM
#302
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2015, 00:58 AMNeo


You talking about ToW stats again?


f34 76mm T-34 Gun t34_76mm_mp.xml:


Accuracy
Accuracy far:
0.025
Accuracy near:
0.05

Kwk40 75mm Tank Gun (Panzer IV) panzer_4_75mm_mp.xml


Accuracy
Accuracy far:
0.025
Accuracy near:
0.05
28 Feb 2015, 01:10 AM
#303
avatar of miragefla
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13

Check the scatter on the weapons, not accuracy when taking infantry into account.

P4 has a less scatter.
Neo
28 Feb 2015, 01:16 AM
#304
avatar of Neo

Posts: 471

Check the scatter on the weapons, not accuracy when taking infantry into account.

P4 has a less scatter.


You might need to explain scatter to him first :)
28 Feb 2015, 01:53 AM
#305
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2015, 01:16 AMNeo


You might need to explain scatter to him first :)


You asked me about comparing each of the units accuracy, and I posted the accuracy stats. No need to be smug.

Check the scatter on the weapons, not accuracy when taking infantry into account.

P4 has a less scatter.


It only has .5 less.

It's almost like these units are similar.....could it be they are in the same tier AND are one is slightly better because it costs more?
28 Feb 2015, 02:27 AM
#306
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

@Alex i post all the list, cause it's faster to copy paste an old post.

Accuracy doesn't matter on vehicles, since they basically hit using scatter values (desviation of the shot), AoE, and damage drop off.

Note: theres also a small difference in Area of effect distance near.

"PIV main gun is better than T34 main gun against infantry (and tanks too), PIV hull MG is better, PIV coaxial is better, and PIV has a pintle that has higher DPS than the T34 pintle+coaxial combined as well"

When you combine ALL the factors you end up with a better AI tank, which is actually a real threat to infantry.


Every stat I can find only points to the t-34/76 being slightly worse than the PIV in anti infantry, and that's just because the T34 has a worse ROF.


-Rof
-Number of Mgs
-DPS of MGs
-Scatter
-Area of effect distance

This without taking into account +45% of deflecting snares or inexistence or inneficience of allied infantry AT.
28 Feb 2015, 02:33 AM
#307
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

@Alex i post all the list, cause it's faster to copy paste an old post.

Accuracy doesn't matter on vehicles, since they basically hit using scatter values (desviation of the shot), AoE, and damage drop off.

Note: theres also a small difference in Area of effect distance near.

"PIV main gun is better than T34 main gun against infantry (and tanks too), PIV hull MG is better, PIV coaxial is better, and PIV has a pintle that has higher DPS than the T34 pintle+coaxial combined as well"

When you combine ALL the factors you end up with a better AI tank, which is actually a real threat to infantry.



-Rof
-Number of Mgs
-DPS of MGs
-Scatter
-Area of effect distance

This without taking into account +45% of deflecting snares or inexistence or inneficience of allied infantry AT.


Iv already said I know the PIV is a better tank, but it doesn't mean the T34/76 is garbage or horrible for AI purposes. This makes sense, as the PIV costs more.
28 Feb 2015, 02:57 AM
#308
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

While i don't find annoying the intention of your post, it grinds my gears when you state things without knowing or being sure of, so this is why you see me correcting you.


Iv already said I know the PIV is a better tank

But not due to the correct facts, which i just corrected. Check the post you made above.

"It's good at killing infantry because it has a good ROF"
"The 76 has a worse ROF, but as far as killing infantry goes both guns are the same."
"I didn't take into account the hull MG's because getting them to hit what you want to accurately is a pain in the dick."

The FIRST T34-76 is fine as a "tempo/shock" unit against 4 models entities or units without AT capabilities or snares. The unit on itself is lackluster. Not bad, but inneficient for it's role.
28 Feb 2015, 07:38 AM
#309
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Feb 2015, 20:43 PMBurts




Oh please. I have taken down many tigers with t-34/76s and zis-3. And i have taken down many IS-2s with just PIVS. Learn to micro, and use teller mines. They do help.


Not to mention the PIV is heaps better againts infantry than the t-34/76, you should be able to bleed him quite a bit by killing his infantry.


You could have taken out the is-2 with pak alone if u had enough and engaged promptly.P4 hardly does any dmg to it,beacuse it can't penetrate is2 at all.P4 costs way more than t-34/76 for its infantry performance.I use p4 solely vs light vehicle,t-34/76 rush and mobile infantry bleeding platform/cache raider.Useless for anything else.
As for tellers i double pack them together lategame when i have muni.If i'm using muni conversion even more so.
Btw ur opponent must have been pretty shit to lose is-2s to paks and p4s unless he hit a mine.
28 Feb 2015, 08:27 AM
#310
avatar of Burts

Posts: 1702



You could have taken out the is-2 with pak alone if u had enough and engaged promptly.P4 hardly does any dmg to it,beacuse it can't penetrate is2 at all.P4 costs way more than t-34/76 for its infantry performance.I use p4 solely vs light vehicle,t-34/76 rush and mobile infantry bleeding platform/cache raider.Useless for anything else.
As for tellers i double pack them together lategame when i have muni.If i'm using muni conversion even more so.
Btw ur opponent must have been pretty shit to lose is-2s to paks and p4s unless he hit a mine.




PIVs are much more efficent againts infantry than t-34/76s. If your opponent is stalling for call ins, you should be able to bleed his MP quite bad before he gets it.
28 Feb 2015, 09:55 AM
#311
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2015, 08:27 AMBurts




PIVs are much more efficent againts infantry than t-34/76s. If your opponent is stalling for call ins, you should be able to bleed his MP quite bad before he gets it.

Ye, but then you cannot afford your own, much more survivable and cost-efficient call-ins, and lose the game come 10/11cps... The regular 7-8 cp PIV just does not have sufficient impact to justify its cost. Again, you show me one OH player who successfully goes for T3 in a competitive game against a meta strat, and I'll show you nine who fall on their faces in the process.

The 34/76 has a structurally similar problem, but given the massive map/resource advantage that usually results from heavy conscript play is much better suited to secure the advantage to mid-late game and bridge the time till the call-ins come into play than the PIV is who cannot build on these foundations.
28 Feb 2015, 10:46 AM
#312
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



It's 1.0 faster, that's it. And the accuracy stats are literally the same.

Since stupid and you seem to be very close friends:


Let me do advanced, university level math for you, because you might overheat in the process:

6.5-6.3=0.2

0.2=/=1

Reading stats, not for everyone, don't try this at home without parents over-watching you kids!

Oh, and accuracy is always the same, its the scatter, rate of fire and AoE profile that matters against infantry and P4 have that superior.
28 Feb 2015, 10:57 AM
#313
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2015, 08:27 AMBurts




PIVs are much more efficent againts infantry than t-34/76s. If your opponent is stalling for call ins, you should be able to bleed his MP quite bad before he gets it.


And u have to pay much more than t-76s as well in both fuel and unit and teching manpower.
Quite bad is exaggeration,iot can bleed fairly well if sov infantry overextends but its not a squad wiper by any degree.And con nades,mines and zis are well capable of taking it out easily.
28 Feb 2015, 11:08 AM
#314
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2015, 10:46 AMKatitof

Since stupid and you seem to be very close friends:


Let me do advanced, university level math for you, because you might overheat in the process:

6.5-6.3=0.2

0.2=/=1

Reading stats, not for everyone, don't try this at home without parents over-watching you kids!

Oh, and accuracy is always the same, its the scatter, rate of fire and AoE profile that matters against infantry and P4 have that superior.


I think he has in mind faster rate of fire, not speed :)
28 Feb 2015, 11:20 AM
#315
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130



No skilled Ostheer player builds all 4 tech buildings. In 1 v 1 or even in large games, a skilled player would either want a P4 + Doctrine support or Panther + Doctrine support. If 4 v 4 go on past 40 minutes mark and Ostheer/Sov sitting on fuel than both players would build T3/T4 in addition.


No they dont. its call in meta. get to tiger. get with the program.
28 Feb 2015, 11:25 AM
#316
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2015, 11:20 AMJaigen


No they dont. its call in meta. get to tiger. get with the program.


But in 4v4 meta is a way more flexible than in 1v1/2v2.
In 2v2, not to mention 1v1, you cant go for Panther and Howitzer or something like that.
In 4v4 you can do whatever you want to try without loosing the game.

Panther + doctrine support (without Tiger) is a great way to play efficiently in 4v4.
28 Feb 2015, 11:48 AM
#317
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130



But in 4v4 meta is a way more flexible than in 1v1/2v2.
In 2v2, not to mention 1v1, you cant go for Panther and Howitzer or something like that.
In 4v4 you can do whatever you want to try without loosing the game.

Panther + doctrine support (without Tiger) is a great way to play efficiently in 4v4.


Thats because of economics. even the larger 4vs 4 maps have around the same amount of points. yet each side has 1k mp income so making a few fuel point is not a bad idea . also callins have less impact their.
28 Feb 2015, 13:55 PM
#318
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



I think he has in mind faster rate of fire, not speed :)

Yea, after reading it again I suppose you might be right :facepalm:
thats still meaningful difference thou.
And I was so proud of that post :guyokay:
28 Feb 2015, 14:15 PM
#319
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2015, 13:55 PMKatitof

And I was so proud of that post :guyokay:
:clap:

No worries, keep fighting! :megusta:
28 Feb 2015, 14:47 PM
#320
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2015, 11:20 AMJaigen


No they dont. its call in meta. get to tiger. get with the program.


I think the Meta is mechanized assault into a Tiger, but I meant in more broad terms. Yes it can be applied to 2 v 2 + as well.
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