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Paratrooper reinforcement cost

29 Jan 2015, 08:45 AM
#1
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705

This unit blobbing has become a favorite due to how cost-efficient and brutal it is.
Its LMg has solid DPS ,u can get thompsons or bazookas and fires on the move.
Has 6 men,a grenade and above all just 28 reinforce cost- less than a grenadier.
Why does an elite infantry cost less than basic infantry?
29 Jan 2015, 09:02 AM
#2
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1

29 Jan 2015, 09:43 AM
#3
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2015, 09:02 AMRMMLz
Working as intended kappa.


Hah,nice.
29 Jan 2015, 09:53 AM
#4
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2779

Ask 10 Allies (only / biased) players on this forum, 10 of 10 would tell you, para is NOT elite infantry. lol Although they are Obers in US uniform.
29 Jan 2015, 10:01 AM
#5
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

Why does an elite infantry cost less than basic infantry?


I don't know the actual stats. But it is perfectly reasonable for paratroopers to be cheaper per model than grenadiers if an individual paratrooper model is inferior to a single grenadier model.

But I do agree that Paratroopers are ridiculous. I don't know who's idea it was to make Para and Ober LMGs fire on the move, but it was a pretty stupid idea.
29 Jan 2015, 10:03 AM
#6
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2015, 09:53 AMPorygon
Ask 10 Allies (only / biased) players on this forum, 10 of 10 would tell you, para is NOT elite infantry. lol Although they are Obers in US uniform.


Come in... obers are way better. Paras have only similar dps but obers have 0,75 dps on move while paras have 0,25 not to mention insane vet.

I remember game when my obers faced 2x Paras (one squad with LMG, one without upgrade) and my obers lost 2 models while my enemy had to retreat both squads.
29 Jan 2015, 10:05 AM
#7
avatar of Bryan

Posts: 412

It's a 6 man squad and the initial cost of 380 is not their "real cost", as it includes an extra cost incurred for deploying on the battlefield. Their real cost is calculated as 336 mp, after deployment, if my hasty maths before a morning coffee is correct.

Reinforcement cost is calculated by halving the squads price, and dividing by their squad member count. So ergo for Paras, 28 mp a pop.

I'd only really take issue with their LMGS, everything else is fine about the unit imo. LMG's for all factions though are a tricky one to balance due to their weapon profiles.

Although like every other LMG unit bars obers, imo they should not be able to move and fire the dam things :)

Edit: Although I would not be opposed to a cost adjustment myself, e.g. make them actually cost 380 mp, thus they would have a higher reinforcement cost.

29 Jan 2015, 10:06 AM
#8
avatar of Burts

Posts: 1702

Yeah paratroopers are overperforming, but so are obersoldaten.


I really think that both paratroopers and obers should be brought down to be slightly better than lmg 42 grenadiers and DP-28 gaurds.
As it stands now, paratroopers do double the DPS of DP-28 gaurds

and obersoldaten more than double the DPS of lmg-42 grenadiers.
29 Jan 2015, 10:25 AM
#9
avatar of AchtAchter

Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3

Grenadiers are a 240 unit where each entity performs for 60 and reinforces for 30.
Paratroopers cost 380 to deploy but actually perform for 336mp (28*12) since they reinforce for 28.

Each para entity deals more damage than a single grenadier entity (and that's without any upgrades).

So they have a higher mp pool and deal more damage entity wise(and in total of course) at nearly every range.


Now let's compare other squads (paras perform for 336) :

Guards perform for 330, logically the should be much better, or paras should be worse.
Obers perform for 400.
Falls perform for 380 (60 mp deployment cost).
Shocks perform for 390.

Objectively, for what they do, they should reinforce for more mp since they are not in line with the other elite infantry. Of course they are doctrinal, but so are Guards, Shocks & Falls.
29 Jan 2015, 10:46 AM
#10
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

I don't know the actual stats. But it is perfectly reasonable for paratroopers to be cheaper per model than grenadiers if an individual paratrooper model is inferior to a single grenadier model.


AchtAchter is correct, compared to a Grenadier, a Paratrooper is superior at all but long range. Factor in a 6 man squad vs a 4 man squad, and Paratroopers reign supreme at all ranges. While Grenadiers can get a single MG 42, Paratroopers can get dual M1919's which also fire on the move, giving them a substantial advantage over Grenadiers.

I will not bring up Obers because I believe they're OP shit from a time when OKW was forced to hold a thin line and build up slowly while getting pounded by counter-attacks and artillery fire.
29 Jan 2015, 12:13 PM
#11
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

As long as Ubersoldaten exist in current form, you can't really complain about any allied infantry at all, especially the one squad that actually stands a chance in direct firefight(but will loose horribly when both are vet2 and onwards).
29 Jan 2015, 12:18 PM
#12
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

Paras are not overperforming, c'mon. They are not obers in US uniforms, rather shock troops in US uniforms keeping proportions of course.
They are what an elite infantry should be, except I don't undesrtand why ELITE infantry which is supposed to be far less common than other units has 6 men! Whatever....

Comming back, the only elite unit that is uberperforming is obersoldaten and for a reason: the faction's income handicap. They require some small tone down though I guess.
29 Jan 2015, 12:56 PM
#13
avatar of mycalliope

Posts: 721

the problem is that many units price difference doesn't justify their performance..meaning for a small price difference...the performance gain is not justified
29 Jan 2015, 13:11 PM
#14
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2015, 12:13 PMKatitof
As long as Ubersoldaten exist in current form, you can't really complain about any allied infantry at all, especially the one squad that actually stands a chance in direct firefight(but will loose horribly when both are vet2 and onwards).


Poor Ostheer... every single over-performing allied unit is justified because of OKW.
29 Jan 2015, 14:02 PM
#15
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705

Yes,OKW does shit and ostheer the bastard faction must pay.Great balance.Just an excuse.Either shock,ober,para all get nerf or ost gets an option vs lategame elite infantry.Pzgrens doesn't cut it in the slightest sense.
29 Jan 2015, 14:12 PM
#16
avatar of m00nch1ld
Donator 11

Posts: 641 | Subs: 1

Pzgrens doesn't cut it in the slightest sense.

PGrens are OP! Said Relic balance designer somewher in Canada.
29 Jan 2015, 14:21 PM
#17
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

You guys are forgetting that the USF player invests 120Muni for that LMG upgrade (by far the most expensive upgrade for any infantry). Since USF buys LMG, he/she is going to lack air support (which is critical late game). Not to mention the devastating effect to the USF player if he loses his Para LMG squad.

Investing large sums of muni on Elite squad for capable AI ability is not OP.
29 Jan 2015, 14:27 PM
#18
avatar of KovuTalli

Posts: 332


PGrens are OP! Said Relic balance designer somewher in Canada.


Only if they hit the field at an earlier time.

If you are gonna quote, at least quote the whole statement.
29 Jan 2015, 14:29 PM
#19
avatar of TheChillty

Posts: 210

This unit blobbing has become a favorite due to how cost-efficient and brutal it is.
Its LMg has solid DPS ,u can get thompsons or bazookas and fires on the move.
Has 6 men,a grenade and above all just 28 reinforce cost- less than a grenadier.
Why does an elite infantry cost less than basic infantry?

+1 considering this unit easily can win against an Ober squad if used correctly (which costs ridiculously 50 MP to reinforce) it's price needs to be increased
29 Jan 2015, 15:11 PM
#20
avatar of Bryan

Posts: 412

Obers scale better and don't pay munitions for their LMG. More utility as well. They come later in tech though.

Vanilla Pgrens vs vanilla paratroopers comparison dps wise is here: http://www.coh2-stats.com/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&squad1=paratrooper_squad_mp&squad2=panzer_grenadier_squad_mp&commit=Compare

In short, Pgrens start off as very good medium range troops who are glass cannons, they out dps Paras and have the option of upgrading to shreks which changes their role. They can be somewhat map/context dependent due to their range profile, but i'd argue that is good design.

Paras are good vanilla, and really shine with their AI upgrades, especially the LMG's because that weapon profile in Coh2 generally speaking, requires less micro and tactical thought. 2 LMG's on a durable platform for 120 munitions and 380 mp is a headache to face, like multiple Gren/ober/whatever squads with LMGs once they hit critical mass.



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