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Tank Destroyer Poll

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Which tank destroyer is at the right power level of a 60 range medium tech TD?
Option Distribution Votes
16%
54%
29%
Total votes: 79
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
4 Feb 2020, 15:27 PM
#1
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

The four 60 range tank destroyers are currently not balanced against each other.

  • The Jackson has the best penetration, the maneuverability to chase down retreating vehicles, the biggest penetration boost with veterancy and an ability that boosts its penetration.


  • The SU-85 also has an excellent gun and the powerful Focused Sight ability at Vet 0. It's also the cheapest, but it's the least maneuverable.


  • The Firefly has no penetration buffs with veterancy and a terrible rate of fire that doesn't really up for its higher damage gun. It's hamstrung largely for the sake of the Tulip rockets, which already have a hefty munitions cost to limit them.


None of these TDs are unusable, and you build all of them if you need them. However, given they serve the same role and face the same enemy units, shouldn't they be balanced against each other?

They're currently not. The Jackson is better than the SU-85 is better than the Firefly.

The question then is which to balance them around? Which tank destroyer is at about the right power level right now?
4 Feb 2020, 15:49 PM
#2
avatar of Riley

Posts: 268

Jagdtiger and Elefant better ) BEST TD in the game.
4 Feb 2020, 15:51 PM
#3
avatar of Riley

Posts: 268

"The Jackson has the best penetration" lol. m36 cant penetrate Jagdtiger. And this happens very often.
4 Feb 2020, 15:54 PM
#4
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Feb 2020, 15:51 PMRiley
"The Jackson has the best penetration" lol. m36 cant penetrate Jagdtiger. And this happens very often.


Someone get this man the unit stats spreadsheet.
4 Feb 2020, 15:58 PM
#5
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

SU85 is the perfect 60 range TD:
+ Great range
+ Great Pen
+ Good rate of fire
+ Great vet
+ Self spotting
- Horrible mobility when self spotting
- Little to no armour
- Casemate so dies to flanking armour
- Cannot fight infantry
- No turret so has to rotate to fire at targets moving across its field of view
4 Feb 2020, 15:58 PM
#6
avatar of Riley

Posts: 268

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Feb 2020, 15:54 PMLago


Someone get this man the unit stats spreadsheet.


Yes exactly. Show everyone the high armor of the Jagdtiger. M36 very often cannot penetrate this. If i dont have veterancy m36 and muni for use HWAP - You're almost dead.
4 Feb 2020, 16:09 PM
#7
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

The SU 85 should be the bench mark. It's cheap and strong but it has weakness's.It has a great ability to help it snipe tanks but tt's not super mobile so can be flanked by meds, bullied by panthers and tigers and can't chase med to oblivion. The Jackson is just OP, tonnes of range, mobility, penetration also having best best infantry support in the game to protect it. I'd argue that Firefly is not worse than the su85. As it's designed to work with Churchill's. But making the Tulips into a 240 dmg 80 range shot but not snare would be good.
4 Feb 2020, 16:10 PM
#8
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Feb 2020, 15:58 PMRiley


Yes exactly. Show everyone the high armor of the Jagdtiger. M36 very often cannot penetrate this. If i dont have veterancy m36 and muni for use HWAP - You're almost dead.

Then I guess 240mp Grens should start beating 2x Bar'd Riflemen from all ranges then.
4 Feb 2020, 16:21 PM
#9
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Feb 2020, 15:58 PMRiley
Yes exactly. Show everyone the high armor of the Jagdtiger. M36 very often cannot penetrate this


Yes, a 145 fuel stock TD can not reliably frontally penetrate the most heavily armoured tank in the game that costs almost twice as much. Shocking.
4 Feb 2020, 16:24 PM
#10
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Feb 2020, 15:27 PMLago
...

The question then is which to balance them around? Which tank destroyer is at about the right power level right now?

None...
These units simply need an overhaul and a veterancy bonuses overhaul. Their base stat where buffed while keeping most of their veterancy bonuses. (accept of the FF which gimmicky).

If someone forced my hand and since OP has rated FF as the worse, I would say the FF.
4 Feb 2020, 16:31 PM
#11
avatar of CreativeName

Posts: 281

If anything, they should be penned everytime by axis mediums, like in the jackon armor nerf thread suggested.

Funny... suddenly every axis team stalls for double tiger in 2v2 and shockingly allies build tank destroyer to counter them :o
I think they are fine for the most part, each 60 range TD has its own weakness and upsides. Learn to utilize their strengt and try to cover their weakness.

As for axis, do it the other way around.

Except for their armor, i wouldnt nerf or change anything. Just allow axis mediums to dive them effectily
4 Feb 2020, 16:33 PM
#12
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Yes, a 145 fuel stock TD can not reliably frontally penetrate the most heavily armoured tank in the game that costs almost twice as much. Shocking.


What are your thoughts on the relative strength of the tank destroyers? Your insights are usually pretty good.
4 Feb 2020, 16:46 PM
#13
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



Yes, a 145 fuel stock TD can not reliably frontally penetrate the most heavily armoured tank in the game that costs almost twice as much. Shocking.

Don't vet 3 jacksons on Ap have 455 pen max range. I'm pretty sure ELE has only 400 armor. Jackson's could theoretically pen ELE's right.
4 Feb 2020, 16:49 PM
#15
avatar of Raxzero

Posts: 55

Firefly is pretty balanced. It's great against heavies but not-so-much against mediums because of rate-of-fire. Doesn't have the mobility of a Jackson but at least its mobility isn't as terrible as SU-85. Its skill-shot is great in the sense that it requires micro and muni investment to be effective but it's powerful when it actually hit.
4 Feb 2020, 17:07 PM
#16
avatar of CreativeName

Posts: 281


Ok, As A noob in OST what are some of the Jackson's weakness's I can exploit????(I know not the right place but still)


I can only talk about 1v1 and 2v2.

Depends somewhat on your opponents tech... jackson is pretty expensive and cant spot for itself, you could set up a dive with double stugs (works against lieut tech without at guns) or lure it into an at gun and follow up with panther/stug.
Considering their cost, if you can trade with any medium tank for a jackson you will come out ahead. The exception would be the okw p4.

Also shrek squads can help deal with them even tho a good player wont let his jackson die to it, you still can keep it away while your tank deal with their inf. Or/and cover your tanks with double at guns

On open maps id say its rather obvious Ele. you need to cover it obviously with at and mines

Dont get me wrong, the jackson is very strong and a well microed jackson or two is a nightmare to deal with but i dont think its impossible or that the jackson is OP. but thats only my opinion of course
4 Feb 2020, 17:32 PM
#17
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



I can only talk about 1v1 and 2v2.

Depends somewhat on your opponents tech... jackson is pretty expensive and cant spot for itself, you could set up a dive with double stugs (works against lieut tech without at guns) or lure it into an at gun and follow up with panther/stug.
Considering their cost, if you can trade with any medium tank for a jackson you will come out ahead. The exception would be the okw p4.

Also shrek squads can help deal with them even tho a good player wont let his jackson die to it, you still can keep it away while your tank deal with their inf. Or/and cover your tanks with double at guns

On open maps id say its rather obvious Ele. you need to cover it obviously with at and mines

Dont get me wrong, the jackson is very strong and a well microed jackson or two is a nightmare to deal with but i dont think its impossible or that the jackson is OP. but thats only my opinion of course

This seems like general tactics to deal with Jackson's rather than exploiting Jackson's weakness's but still will keep it in mind.
4 Feb 2020, 17:37 PM
#18
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3113 | Subs: 2

While this poll is interesting, we cannot disregard the general faction that each TD has to work in. Of course the Jackson is too good for it's price, but that's because everything else in USF loadout does not reliably deal even with a P4.


Apart from this, I think the SU85 has the best design. Strong at it's job, weak vs infantry. Clear weakness by being a casemate. Excellent vet0 ability with a clear trade off.
Zhe firefly is okayish.too costly for the price, but UKF has a very good ATG as support. It offers utility instead of an ability, slight tweaks on the DPS vs alpha damage side. Overall I'd say it has a good idea with an acceptable implementation.
Jackson, well, we've had that before.
4 Feb 2020, 17:47 PM
#19
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

While this poll is interesting, we cannot disregard the general faction that each TD has to work in. Of course the Jackson is too good for it's price, but that's because everything else in USF loadout does not reliably deal even with a P4.
...

And that is part of the point of ostheer, the being under pressure in infatry and light vehicle phase and they are supposed to be able to push in the medium tank phase. If their PzIV is zoned form range 60 by a M36 they need to become stronger in the infatry and light vehicles phase...

And the claim that USF can deal reliably to PzIV see a slight exaggeration...
4 Feb 2020, 18:23 PM
#20
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 416 | Subs: 1

I agree that the SU-85 is the best balanced.

An armor nerf for the M36 would be reasonable. That would reduce its effectiveness against PIVs while not harming its capability vs Tigers.


I would like to see the Firefly made more unique and "historically-flavored".

30% more pen by default (like other TDs at vet 2)
speed/accel increased
slightly faster fire rate
BUT
range is reduced to 45m
accuracy at range is cut in half (mostly impacts performance vs LVs)

This makes it less of a bad M36 and more of an aggressive heavy killer. I know it's too big a change for this late in the game's life, but it would be nice to have more unique units across factions.
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